Probably one for Neale or Fred but does anyone have an opinion on this Coin.
It has the ' normal' groove on the Obv. associated to the Dot Under English but this seems to have a diferent Rev. to my other 1920 English Obv. Coins,about 10,no die crack thru/under A for eg.
It has lots of other markers on the REV,no RHS top scroll,die mark after "A' of Australia,lower leg of 'Penny' not formed properly and numerous die cracks and planchett flaws,i doubt this Die would have been used much longer.
What it does seem to have is a dot above the lower scroll,hard to see on scans but stands out with a Loupe.
Is this definitely a dot under with the markers present or possibly a different Rev. Die used with the standard English Obv. Die.?
Edit...Managed to diffuse the light on my Microscope to get a better Pic.,only feint but the Dot is there,or at least appears to be.
Lot of marks under Lower Scroll but no visible Dot as such but will try and get better Pics.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Good_Dot.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Good_dot_arrow.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Lower_Scroll_Text_.png)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/AAA___KB_Microscope_00002jpg.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/AAA___KB_Microscope_00001jpg.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/dobs3.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/dobs7.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/Dot_Snap.png)
Appears to be a regular dot below London.
Except for the extra dot above ?
Would like to see more pics.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='122465' dateline='1590661774'Appears to be a regular dot below London.
Except for the extra dot above ?
Would like to see more pics.
Yeah,just that i haven't seen this Reverse before,i'll try and get better Pics. up this W/end.
As i said the Dot(weak if it is a genuine Dot) stands out with a Loupe but not with the scans when the light hits it.
Edit..just added a couple of extra Pics.,will try and get some better ones.
Could the lamination faults be causing it to look like a dot above as well as obscuring the dot below? Also is there a lump at the base of AL in ALIA? I'll have to check my reference collection when I get back (July?)
I'll have a whiff of oxygen before looking back through my work on the DOBS 1920, there is so much I wrote on 1920's with Neal's help!
What I SEE from the pix in #1 is a weakly struck coin, but evenly struck in that all the features are there.
The wear across the faces adds to that impression.
There is die filling on the reverse around the scrolls. All of that is pretty usual.
The rims are firm enough so it looks like a Melbourne struck coin and the die was still supporting the strike out there.
The weakness of the strike makes any dot on it a bit shallow and yes there is a hint of a round thing above the bottom scroll about 1/2 way up to the PENNY and off to the right from center. It looks quite large and may just be an artifact. The surface laminations do not help!
I'm thinking the die was a bit on the soft side, the lack of definition about the scrolls may also be the die collapsing at that point.
Now, i'll have a breath and have a wander through my picture gallery to see if i have a brother coin.
Fred.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='122468' dateline='1590674873'Could the lamination faults be causing it to look like a dot above as well as obscuring the dot below? Also is there a lump at the base of AL in ALIA? I'll have to check my reference collection when I get back (July?)
Thanks Neal & Fred,i think the lamination faults are due to the Die failing,serious cracks around the lower scroll.
Few more Pics. of ALIA and the A in Commonwealth.
Probably a false dot but i thought i would test the water as i don't have any other English Obv. Coins with this Rev.
I don't think the Rev. Die would have lasted long after this Coin before being retired.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/A7.jpg)(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/A1.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/ALIA.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/A5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/A8.jpg)
This is a comparison of 'wealth' of my original Coin and a typical(of my 5 EDUBS) Coin with a groove on Obverse.
The original coin has 3 'dots' under L that is missing on the other groove coins.
It appears to be a different Rev Die to the other Coins with the grooved Obv. although they all have a missing RHS top scroll.
Original Coin on left,typical Obv. Groove Coin on right.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/DOBS_on_Left_Panny.jpg)
This is(i think) eg of a Coin Fred was talking about in his CaB article. Die crack thru A with what appears to be a Dot OBS,this one has a clear dot under scroll.I'll throw up some Pics. of the original Coin for future Ref.,die crack thru A on Rev. and Groove on OBV,my Neville Nobody opinion the 'grooved' Obv. was paired with more than 1 Rev.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/AAA___KB_Microscope_REV00001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/AAA___KB_Microscope_OBV00001.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/2~0.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/3~0.jpg)
Hi Basil, just logged on and will post this without looking at the new pics above.
I re read what o wrote about the 1920 DOBS English and took some notes.:
1920 dot over bottom scroll English, (DOBSE) rated as very rare.
Maybe 20 known?
Possibly struck at Perth with one set of dies only.
Reverse.
Well struck from sharp die.
FBL.
The dot is small and round, positioned to the left of center and half way between scroll and "PENNY" on ALL coins seen.
Obverse.
Well struck from faulty die with chips.
Two die markers that ALL coins seen have .
Fused beads above ITT, die chip.
Die chip, small, from the top surface of the "D" of FD.
Upset.
YES. Dot below King lines up with "9" in date on ALL coins.
See article CAB Feb 2014 Effendi – Lever for arguments explanations and proofs.
Regarding the "artifact" of LARGE dots seen on coins.
Have seen and have pix of similar large dots on 1922 coins. Look above the NN in "penny".
Can email pdf of article to you if needed.
Have to rush, at least the above defines what a genuine coin should have.
Fred.
Thanks Fred,my Coin does not fit that summary,large dot to the right and no fused beads above 'ITT' ,i have the rim groove.
Interesting Rev. thou.,as i said completely different to my other Coins that have the rim groove,probably wasn't in use for long judging by the die cracks.
There is a 1920 dot above with English obverse on eBay at the moment.
Seller lion-stu-1968 lists at $2600.
Unfortunately the obverse has a weak struck rim and the fused pearls and D flaw cannot be proven.
The reverse looks typical with a small dot in the right place.
The coin needs a good cleaning to get the muck and corrosion off.
One would have to examine it in the hand to go further.
No, i am not going to buy it!
Fred.
I'll throw some Pics. up for future Ref.,the 'tooled' and 'not graded' is a bit of a worry.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/PCGS_REv.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1920_dot_over_top_scroll_Ebay_30_5.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1920_dot_over_top_scroll_Ebay_30_5__OBV.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1920_dot_over_top_scroll_Ebay_30_rev_PCGS.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/1920_dot_over_top_scroll_Ebay_30_rev_PCGS.jpg)
For me it's chalk and cheese. Why would one even consider this coin when there's another available for not much more.
https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/ (https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/)
Re #12.
From the pix above i can see the flaw on the D and there is also a mark like a crack through the R in REX?
Or is that a scratch on the plastic box it is trapped in?
I think the "tooling" may be the scrapes on the rim above the REX on the obverse.
That coin may be a later strike in the die life, the obverse die may have been failing quick smart.
That may explain why Perth minted so few of them.
The high grade one I have handled and my own have a better struck obverse.
Fred.
Edit extra.
Oh, and the purple penny one does not feature the fused beads above ITT?
The rim looks like it was not fully struck.
Possibly PP could add a close up of the area on the web site?
One thing that I keep in mind with die flaws is the question:
Did the die start off with that flaw, OR, were some strikes made BEFORE the bit flakes off?
Then a genuine coin may not have the flaw in question.
Always something to think about when getting dogmatic that some variety MUST have the dot or the mark or else it is not genuine.
End edit.
Fred.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='122502' dateline='1590894849'For me it's chalk and cheese. Why would one even consider this coin when there's another available for not much more.
https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/ (https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/)
Pics. for future Ref....
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/493/australia-1920-1d-dabs-london-obverse-pcgs-vf20-1.jpg)
Basil, thanks for the pix in #15 above.
Nice coin, and tells a story, shows how the press guys were having a problem with the obverse die.
Note the spreading of the rim letters around IND IMP and the incomplete beading.
That die was mushrooming badly on the edges. The surface of the die was hard enough to develop splinters, but the body of the die was too soft and compressing. I have 1920's coins where the mushrooming is so bad the coins show circular waves in the field (10 to 20 thou deviations) or the rims have a myriad of circular cracks and no beads at all. Most collectors would throw such a coin away as useless when in fact there is a volume of evidence relating to the die! Also relates to the fact there are THREE dies in a strike, the top and bottom and the collar! The collar holds all the stuff in!
Anyway, i'm rambling...
The strike is deep, so the pressure looks ok, the die has just lost the beading pattern and could not develop the beads against the pre-rimmed part of the blank.
The splintering on the D was also developing compared to younger examples.
That is a great coin because it talks to you and tells you what is going on.
I prefer such a coin to some UNC shelf queen.
Fred.
Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='122512' dateline='1590967528'Basil, thanks for the pix in #15 above.
Fred.
No worries,i'm on unlimited Internet at the moment so getting as many Pics on the various Forums(Motor Sport/Stamps etc) i can before i revert back to a Internet plan.
I have an interesting 1920 Coin and will post Pics. this afternoon whilst i have my 1920 Coins out.
Edit...can't find it,when it turns up i will post in a separate Thread,very interesting Coin.
Continuing with the 1920 dot theme, Les at Top End Coins alerted me to an article on the PCGS web site where a PDF of the Effendi and Lever research material on 1920 pennies is quoted as a source for the PCGS article.
Unfortunately the author did not use our names to reference the source, a matter of accuracy in the least. Thanks to Les for pointing that out.
Worse still The PCGS author headlined his article with an snappy set of words pinched from a chapter in the Effendi/Lever articles!
When I write articles I am most careful to attribute any quote or idea to the actual source and list these either in the text or in a list at the end of the article.
Some authors are not so careful.
Worse still from my view point, while the article was factual in coin descriptions, the same old fairy stories about the dies used and the "meaning" of the dots is once more in print.
Once in print the fairy stories are then seen as fact. Just like the fairy story about 1930 pennies being handed out at the mint door, if people keep copying and pasting from the same old fairy story they read about a coin , the twaddle goes on and on. If the PCGS author had actually read the Effendi/Lever research (printed as a series in CAB in 2013/2014 and issued as a PDF compilation in 2015) or better still research by experts such as David Briggs in his "Copper" series, he would realise how speculative some of the statements in the article are.
That is my opinion but I am not interested in arguing with people that do not research topics fully.
If interested, have a read of the PCGS article "The Enigmatic Australian 1919 and 1920 dot penny coins" by Dylan Dominguez, Dec1,2020, and, down load the Effendi/Lever pdf " the 1920 penny" from the "top ends" coin web site or drop me an email. Then compare the two sets of information and see which one has the most twaddle, and look for where Dylan swiped his headline.
Oh I sent an email to PCGS suggesting that the source referencing for "the 1920 penny" have the authors added. About the PCGS article, I am not interested in having any conversation, each to his own.
Fred.
Hi Fred
That PCGS article also turned up on CCF. I burned it there for the trashy cut and paste article it is. What really concerns me is that we are experts in this coin and can see how bad that article is, so now we have to wonder about the quality of all the other PCGS articles for coins we are not experts in. Can we take any PCGS article as factual and scholarly or do we have to wonder how many falsehoods they contain. Does PCGS even fact check the articles that they attach their reputation to?
Thanks Neal, this would be like me doing a bit of google research on an American coin type and then cut and pasting up an article for CAB.
Readers would be nodding their heads thinking what a wonderful cluey fellow i was about American coins when in reality the article would be utter rubbish.
Authors should only detail write about coins that they have done original research on, with their own coins and pictures.
Knowing what they are talking about would also be handy.
Fred.
Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='126115' dateline='1647036274'Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.
Yes,they bob up every so often around the $2000 mark so $2750 for a lesser grade is good.I think Neal has a couple.
Most auction houses always have a 1930 penny or two for sale, but seldom do you see the 1920 English dot over bottom scroll, yet 30tees go for around 20 grand plus..
Yeah, IMHO 30's have had 70 or 80 years of media and industry hype which has kept interest and values perking along, and I imagine vested interests within the coin industry are doing all they can to see things stay that way.
Maybe when collectors start to think it's more important to have the full set, is when we'll see values for the 1920 English dot above start to increase.
That day may not be far away, I remember recently seeing a similar coin rarity, the 1931 dropped 1 Indian graded aVF/VF, gFine IMHO, sell at auction for around $6,700 including commission.
Quote from: 'Basilstate' pid='126118' dateline='1647124014'Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='126115' dateline='1647036274'Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.
Yes,they bob up every so often around the $2000 mark so $2750 for a lesser grade is good.I think Neal has a couple.
Cheapest (and nastiest) example I've seen was $1495 (IIRC) some years back sold by Stuart Andersons. $2750 for gFine is reasonable. The prices for both the 1920 Dot Above English and the 1931 Dropped 1 Indian have not moved up much in the past decade. Yes, I have a couple (and then some).
Noble auctions last sold a 1920 DOBS London PCGS vf 35 back in 2016 for $3200.00 plus commission. Interesting to see how much it sells for next time around...
No, prices haven't moved a whole lot, but $6,700 for dropped 1 Indian - the seller must have been happy with that.
I see M R Roberts has a warped dropped 1 Indian with rim damage advertised for $2,500.
For anyone interested there is a 1920 Dot over Lower Scroll English Obverse for sale on IAG Auctions this week.
Looks like it will go for over A$3000 which is reasonable seeing only 20 or so have been ID.
https://www.iagauctions.com/auction/index.php?fcategory=21&fgrade=all&festimate=all&submit=%C2%A0Search%C2%A0
You would think there'd be half a dozen bidders fighting for it by now. Yet no bidders so far. Most commonwealth varieties collectors are now in old people homes. New collector's are just interested in coloured 2 dollar coins...lol..
Quote from: 'serenitystan' pid='127078' dateline='1663983955'You would think there'd be half a dozen bidders fighting for it by now. Yet no bidders so far. Most commonwealth varieties collectors are now in old people homes. New collector's are just interested in coloured 2 dollar coins...lol..
Yes Stan,interesting to see what it goes for or if it indeed sells.
I have one,not as good grade as that one,but was still offered $2000 by a local Dealer,i'll think i'll wait thou.
Edit...just went thru. Pre-Dec. listings,hardly a bid on anything,IAG used to be one of the best Auctions pre-Covid but very slow start to this auction.
Still a month to the auction, last few auctions I've been blown out of the water by other bidders for the choice coins I was interested in after my early bids at well over estimate were streaked past on the night. Will be interesting to see what this one goes for. The deep indentation is a major problem for what is otherwise a nice example. Would it be enough to stop it getting a grade as without that dent it would be an XF40, possibly even a 45.
There is very little to tempt me in this auction as nothing in wow condition or high MS slabs in the silver. Not sure why the auction is referring to so many mid grade MS (63-64) slabs as ChUnc/Gem when a quick glance shows bag marks etc that justified only a mid MS grade that they were assessed as.
Yes Neale,i've blown the Pic. up on the 1920 DOBS English,not as clear as i would like but i think the indentation on the Obv. is a planchett flaw,very serendipitous in shape.
I've never purchased anything from IAG but have watched their pre-Dec. listings over the years,he certainly gets good prices for the better grades/rare coins.
Hi Basil, I thought it was from a nail, a simple thing like that halves the value as anyone who wants a scarce and expensive coin for a set registry usually passes up on a no grade coin and that means less bidders and no bidding war from 2 deep pockets.
Hi Neale,just surmising without a decent Pic. of the Coin.
These days once the rarer Coins come on the market they really need to be slabbed to get anywhere near book value.
Looking at a couple of the pre-dec Coins but might wait to see if there is any interest before bidding.
Hi Basil. I find the concept of book value as mostly unreliable. Take for example the 1952 florin. We all have stacks of them in circulated grades, frankly worth bullion value. But Numistip has F12 (really well circulated) as worth $21. Would you pay $21 for a coin worth $6? Then in MS62 they have it worth $110, that is a high value on a low end Unc. In MS63 and MS64 they have $140 and $250 and they are near the money. Then in MS65 the book vale is $430, that is a joke as the third example that hit that high grade sold some months ago for well over $2000, I dropped out of the bidding at over $1000 as I already have the second example (and Timbertop has the first example). I doubt any of those 3 will hit the market for a while and with the rise in values at the top end a fair value might be $3000. So how did they come up with $430? And how did they come up with $390 last year, especially as last year there were only 2 in that grade? All the catalogues do that, over value low end coins but undervalue the Top Of The Pops coins.
And is it possible that the DOBS English example in the auction is raw (unslabbed) as the owner was advised it would No Grade if sent off for slabbing?
Hi Neale...attached a Pic. of a similar Coin,it looks like a Planchette or Die flaw behind the Kings Head.
There was another unslabbed Coin on Oz Ebay a few years ago,DOLS ,English Obverse,that had that 'ding' behind the Kings Head and the malformed denticles on the Obv.,i downloaded the Pics. but can't find them at the moment.
The Coin was suddenly withdrawn so someone must have tipped the seller off on what variety it was.
I will Post Pics., when i find them.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/English_Obv_dols.jpg)
Pretty sure the people at IAG would have viewed the 1920 DOBS English with a 30x loupe before describing it with a Dig behind kings head..Paul's been around for yonks and would know the difference between a plan-die flaw and dig..
A die flaw normally will not stop a coin getting a grade, a ding, scratch or gouge will and when I saw that image my assumption was it was a nail. Serinitystan is right, no way an auctioneer would damage the marketability of a 4 figure coin
Seems PCGS makeup there own rules regarding grading. A coin with a scratch,ding, gouge etc, should still receive a grade with details..They do it with banknotes that have been cleaned,pressed,pinhole,repaired tear,thinning etc etc...
Not that it matters but i've been collecting pre-dec for over 60 years,i learnt a long time ago to trust your own eyes,you won't always be correct but it saves a lot of grief in the long run.
This is extremely important especially in the case of online Auctions,relying on poor quality Pics. and the Auctioneers opinion,no matter his/her bona-fides is a recipe for disaster.
We need a better Pic. for a A$3000 Coin.
Hi Basil, I agree...Purchasing raw coins + banknotes from auction houses and dealers regarding descriptions and pictures can be a recipe for disaster or a big win. Best to do it the old way by viewing in person with the naked eye and magnifier..Slim pickings on quality pre- decimals today as most are now in slabs...
Speaking about buying raw coins from images etc. The two pics below are of the same coin. The first is the image supplied by a leading auction house late last year, the second is the PCGS pic after grading. I was initially surprised there wasn't much interest in the coin, even the estimate wasn't what I thought it might be which in my opinion should have been way above my pay grade. In the end I did place a hopeful late bid and won the coin. When it arrived in the post, I soon realised why.
Anyhow, off it went to the plastic factory and came back MS63RB. So, I'm happy enough as the chances of me acquiring something in this grade was slime to nil.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/1918_Penny_Noble_auction.png)(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10064/191/1918_Penny_44636020.jpg)
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='127099' dateline='1664419871'Speaking about buying raw coins from images etc. The two pics below are of the same coin. The first is the image supplied by a leading auction house late last year, the second is the PCGS pic after grading. I was initially surprised there wasn't much interest in the coin, even the estimate wasn't what I thought it might be which in my opinion should have been way above my pay grade. In the end I did place a hopeful late bid and won the coin. When it arrived in the post, I soon realised why.
Anyhow, off it went to the plastic factory and came back MS63RB. So, I'm happy enough as the chances of me acquiring something in this grade was slime to nil.
Wow, one would almost think that they are pictures of different coins.
Thanks for showing, was very interesting.
Nice lucky pickup Auto..This is why auctions + dealers do not use the same photo technology as PCGS..
The die marker on the D in FD is replicated exactly on the X in REX.
Same size and angle.
Also there are three dots above the S in GEORGIUS.
Offset die clashes ?
How faint is it? I can't see anything obvious on the X.
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/oIactfH.jpg)" />
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/LYnQCp5.jpg)" />
Its a bit harder to see but its there.
(//%3Ca%20href=)(https://i.imgur.com/9cGp0ct.jpg)" />
A better pic of the die flaw in X of REX.
Nice photo. They are 3 different coins going by the rim dings. The second coin has much sharper details in the beading and rims as well as the lettering. Could wear alone account for this?
The second one is a bit better grade and also the original pic was better res.
IGA Auction Coin on Ebay,that didn't take long,big markup from the A$3000 it was listed as but i guess they will steadily rise in value when the scarcity becomes known.
Nice clear dot on the Reverse but by the looks of things the Obverse Die has problems.
Seller says there are around 30 known,Sydney Dealer told me less than 20 a few Months ago,whatever the correct number they are sure rare.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/354367641657
Edit...Pics. for future reference.
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/1920_ebay_dols.jpg)
(https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11956/504/1920_dols_obverse.jpg)
ebay has its consequences. The coin is available from the same dealer's site for $600 less. Still above the IAG estimate, I think.
Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='127296' dateline='1667437040'ebay has its consequences. The coin is available from the same dealer's site for $600 less. Still above the IAG estimate, I think.
Yes Auto,Ebay fees about $600 on $4000+,Dealers get a special deal thou. IIRC.
There are more than 20 known as there were that many known about 4 years ago