PCGS cancels certification of genuine coins

nealeffendi · May 12, 2018, 11:41:34 AM

An interesting development in the saga of the numerous fakes that PCGS has certified. They are making invalid the certification numbers of genuine coins if they are owned by collectors who possess a counterfeit coin in a PCGS slab and don't hand them over. To quote David Talk (PCGS customer services manager) Your account will remain blocked and the Certification Numbers remain invalid.., :@
Considering that we are the ones who warned PCGS that they were certifying fakes they are getting heavy handed to make the existence of these fakes dissapear into a memory hole.
The only good thing is that I got their nasty email at 02:22 this morning as at 10 I was down the post office to pick up a few packets and was to post off a 6 figure submission that included 4 1920 ./ English. Hate to think of them holding those coins as hostages in an account that is blocked

Fr45h3R · May 12, 2018, 02:18:07 PM

I think the approach is more to get those who may not know these exist to contact them, and more so to prevent any guarantee claims down the track against them.

This would only impact you if the certified coin was put into your registry.
One that wasn't in your registry would only throw a red flag when someone tried to add it.

nealeffendi · May 12, 2018, 02:53:23 PM

That doesn't make any sense. The certification numbers of the 2 fakes have already been cancelled so anybody down the track would already need to contact PCGS to find out why the numbers come up as not on the database. Checking certification numbers applies whether you are adding the coin to a set registry or not (if anything to avoid fake slabs).
The making of genuine coin certifications as invalid is just a technique to hold those certificates as hostage to try to force me to hand over my fakes. Only problem for them is that I have the nuclear option of uploading images I've taken of those fakes that they have wrongly slabbed and in addition over 40 more coins that are wrongly described and also multiple other counterfeit coins (both Australian and foreign). I should add that those multiple other coins are not in my collection but belong to others who most likely don't know they have an overpriced misdescribed coin coin or a fake. If they find out then there could be a number of warranty claims that will be very expensive as a number are 4 and 5 figure coins.

wwwww · May 12, 2018, 06:06:48 PM

Why wouldn't you send them back?

drakesterling · May 12, 2018, 08:50:58 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115283' dateline='1526102603'That doesn't make any sense. The certification numbers of the 2 fakes have already been cancelled so anybody down the track would already need to contact PCGS to find out why the numbers come up as not on the database. Checking certification numbers applies whether you are adding the coin to a set registry or not (if anything to avoid fake slabs).
The making of genuine coin certifications as invalid is just a technique to hold those certificates as hostage to try to force me to hand over my fakes. Only problem for them is that I have the nuclear option of uploading images I've taken of those fakes that they have wrongly slabbed and in addition over 40 more coins that are wrongly described and also multiple other counterfeit coins (both Australian and foreign). I should add that those multiple other coins are not in my collection but belong to others who most likely don't know they have an overpriced misdescribed coin coin or a fake. If they find out then there could be a number of warranty claims that will be very expensive as a number are 4 and 5 figure coins.

They don't require you to hand over the fakes. They only require the certs back. There's no reason you need to keep the certs. While we all know that you are one of the good guys without nefarious intentions, PCGS doesn't know that. From their perspective, you are keeping coins in PCGS holders knowing that the coins are fake.

Eric Eigner

runway · May 12, 2018, 09:36:31 PM

Surely that PCGS 2014 Anzac mule is fake

nealeffendi · May 13, 2018, 01:45:49 AM

Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115285' dateline='1526114208'Why wouldn't you send them back?

I keep a "black box" collection of both raw and certified coins. Some of us collect not just error coins but certified coins that have been incorrectly holdered. Wrong denomination, wrong country, wrong mint and of course counterfeit. Keeping such a collection is useful to keep the TPGs on their toes to not screw up again and again. If the slabs are sent back then they will end up in a memory hole, same with sending back the certificate insert. Over the years I've kept records of many incorrectly holdered coins who certificates have been corrected (like my 1961 ram shilling that originally had NZ as its country) or whose existence has been erased (scores of counterfeit coins).

trout · May 13, 2018, 06:17:52 AM

Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?

nealeffendi · May 13, 2018, 11:20:51 AM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='115294' dateline='1526158072'Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?

Hi Trout, I did have an email from Eric where he told me that PCGS has offered a few free gradings. However this isn't about money but about principles and standards. I sent those 2 fakes in not to defraud (what would I get for a MS65 1911 shilling?) but to test the system. I want to keep them in their slabs not to embarrass PCGS but because I never could stand for cover-ups or the rewriting of facts.
I'll be sending you a PM to ask about certain coins.

trout · May 13, 2018, 05:36:49 PM

I had dozens of wrongly attributed/labelled slabs from PCGS and the last straw was when they ruined 5 silver proof dollar coins and after they (reluctantly) cleaned them up the best grade I got was PR67 for them which is rubbish.
For all their talk they are NOT 100% infallible and when they do stuff up it is up to you to make things right, Stick to your guns Mate and if they want to play hard ball and screw you around talk to NGC :good:

wwwww · May 14, 2018, 04:19:34 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115301' dateline='1526176251'
Quote from: 'trout' pid='115294' dateline='1526158072'Has PCGS offered to refund you your slabbing fees and postage costs when you send the certs back Neil?

Hi Trout, I did have an email from Eric where he told me that PCGS has offered a few free gradings. However this isn't about money but about principles and standards. I sent those 2 fakes in not to defraud (what would I get for a MS65 1911 shilling?) but to test the system. I want to keep them in their slabs not to embarrass PCGS but because I never could stand for cover-ups or the rewriting of facts.

PCGS don't cover up facts, they're a public company, they have obligations to release this kind of information and they do, you can easily find out how much PCGS is paying to buy in their mistakes, you can even find high profile buy-ins on their website, e.g.: https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Grading-Guarantee-Update

They cancel the certificates to protect collectors from buying these known fakes.

If you're still worried about a cover-up, why don't you just take photos of them?

JeffH · May 14, 2018, 04:32:31 PM

Looks like they are being honest and admitting mistakes -nobody's perfect after all. A few of our politicians and senior bankers should learn to do that.

kchan1111 · May 15, 2018, 06:23:18 AM

You can get the amount of warranty reserves they have set aside and payments for grading mistakes each year in their 10-K annual report.

There are some interesting metrics on the number of coins graded and average fees etc in there as well.

nealeffendi · May 15, 2018, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115316' dateline='1526280574'They cancel the certificates to protect collectors from buying these known fakes.

If you're still worried about a cover-up, why don't you just take photos of them?

Hi Walter
I have no objection to the fakes certificates being cancelled, that is why I asked Eric to contact them to get them cancelled.
Photos are good, but these days with photoshop there can be plausible deniability that the photos are not real. With the physical slabs however that isn't possible.
It isn't just about them putting their mistakes in a memory hole, its also about them being MY slabs (notwithstanding all the really fine print that they want to use) and I want to keep them untampered/undoctored with. If PCGS thinks its embarrassing that those 2 slabs exist then that is good. They might pay more attention next time in not only spotting the fakes but listening to those of us who have posted this and other forums (CCF) that PCGS had slabbed some fake shillings including the 1911 with the scratch near the date. They should have picked that fake easily and not graded it MS65.
So because I told them I was keeping them they went all nasty and canceled the certs of 6 genuine coins of mine. Really dumb move as now I can post not just 2 slab images on the internet but 8 and let those thinking of getting coins slabbed know that their genuine certs can be cancelled at any time for any reason (or no reason). Makes spending on PCGS slabbing a bad investment.
So now instead of the fakes only being seen by a few responsible people....
Eric recommended I contact and negotiate a solution with them so I'll give it a few more days to see if they will parley

wwwww · May 15, 2018, 06:55:03 PM

PCGS doesn't want them back because it's embarrassing, if they did they wouldn't be publishing just how many fakes they've had to buy back. The reason why they want them back (and for their small print which requires you send them back) is because they don't want you scamming other people with them. We know you won't do that but PCGS doesn't.