PCGS cancels certification of genuine coins

Mister T · May 15, 2018, 07:15:28 PM

Tell them you destroyed them yourself.

drakesterling · May 15, 2018, 10:52:39 PM

PCGS actually needs the physical certs back to cancel them. They cannot do it without the physical certs. They have hidden your entire submission because that's the only way to hide the certs that they don't have back yet. And as they only just sent them to you, I guess they feel that this is justified. It also protects themselves (and collectors) against future claims in the event that you on-sell these coins. (All of us here know that you won't, but PCGS doesn't know that.) They do not do this to random submissions or individual coins that they later discover to be fake.

I know that they can hide entire submissions, because they did it to me once after I forgot to pay my PCGS fees.

Eric

Cockatoo Coins · May 16, 2018, 06:42:45 AM

I've had a couple that I've called them and requested they cancel, most weren't worth the effort of sending back so they requested I crack the slabs and send them a photo of the certificate cut in half. That made them happy, they even sent me a goodies bag and some free gradings for doing it

trout · May 16, 2018, 07:36:56 AM

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that when a collector Not a dealer has a problem with a PCGS stuff up everyone with a vested interest goes to great pains to defend the sometimes "Draconian" actions of this grading company.
I can understand PCGS cancelling the certs on Neils fakes But to cancel the certs on the rest of the genuine coins in his submission smacks of blackmail.
Neil is Not at fault here PCGS is because they failed miserably by Not detecting the fake coins and put them in genuine slabs in the first place.
One of the main reasons why collectors use a TPG is to verify that their coins are Genuine So PCGS should be bending over backwards to get the 2x errant slabs off Neil, Not tying to Bully/blackmail him.

wwwww · May 16, 2018, 06:13:19 PM

Nobody is defending PCGS, we're simply correcting the misconceptions about what he believes is PCGS' motivation.

Did they cancel all your registry coins or just coins from the submission you sent the fakes in?

nealeffendi · May 16, 2018, 09:22:19 PM

Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115332' dateline='1526460199'Nobody is defending PCGS, we're simply correcting the misconceptions about what he believes is PCGS' motivation.

Did they cancel all your registry coins or just coins from the submission you sent the fakes in?

So far the 8 coins. But if they are not willing to compromise then when a war will break out. If that happens I'll be removing all my coins from my registry and transferring ownership to my heirs (a few decades early) as a protective measure.
There is no logic in them fearing me selling the 2 slabbed fakes. I alerted the forums in early March to the years identified as fake (at that stage only the 1911 was known and the additions were 1914, 1916 and 1925), had I wanted to swindle anyone I would have sent 8 fakes (not 2) and would have done it in early March (and not waited a month until my 8 coins "free" submission was near expiry). I arranged for the 2 slabbed fakes to be designated as fakes (thanks Eric) and expected their certs to be cancelled (which they did very quickly, especially after I spotted my 1916 as the third image in the population report and let Eric know to tell them) . I also lent then 7 more fakes (raw) on 29/4/18 for them to get a better understanding of the fakes so (hopefully) there wouldn't be any more screw ups.
And if anyone wonders why I sent them then post # 26 on Steve's 1914 shilling with roo diecrack (PCGS MS63 but fake) had Cockatoo posting a message from Mike Sargent which included this... PCGS is the leading expert in counterfeit detection. We maintain an impressive library of counterfeit photos that is unmatched by any third party service, are available to every PCGS grader. Best regards, Mike Sargent
So I decided to test them with just 2 fakes, one that should have been on their red alert hot list (the 1911 shilling) and the 1916 as something a bit harder. With 2 graders looking at each coin you would expect at least one of them to have paid attention to the latest lists of known fakes. Or do they nap through the briefings? :sleepy:
I'm even willing to let the 2 fakes be sequestered away for a few years in neutral hands as long as after that period they come back uncracked in any way (so yes, still with the decertified certs inside).
So tonight I'll contact Mike Sargent and see if he can organise a compromise (as in a way it is his mess that they got through)

wwwww · May 17, 2018, 08:44:11 AM

Are you talking to the same people that you talked to about the fakes? They're a large company and if you're talking to some random customer service rep they'll have no idea you were instrumental in helping PCGS identify them as fakes. Try talking to whoever you talked to before when informing them about the fakes.

nealeffendi · May 17, 2018, 07:25:36 PM

Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='115326' dateline='1526418765'I've had a couple that I've called them and requested they cancel, most weren't worth the effort of sending back so they requested I crack the slabs and send them a photo of the certificate cut in half. That made them happy, they even sent me a goodies bag and some free gradings for doing it

Can I Photoshop some fake certificates being cut in half? An ironic way to deal with counterfeits.

Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='115345' dateline='1526512451'Are you talking to the same people that you talked to about the fakes? They're a large company and if you're talking to some random customer service rep they'll have no idea you were instrumental in helping PCGS identify them as fakes. Try talking to whoever you talked to before when informing them about the fakes.

Hi Walter, the random customer service rep was David Talk. Last night I emailed PCGS and headed the email Counterfeit Australian shillings (attention Mike Sargent). So I outlined a number of points and offered a compromise (they remain in their slabs, at a neutral location for a few years and then they come back uncracked with me not posting any images and only showing a select few persons). I did let him know that I'm angry about their retaliation and will post lots of images on lots of forums if they won't budge on a mutual compromise.
Seriously they are doing more harm to themselves than me as I who loses if I continue to keep my coins in their Saflips?(or do as Trout recommends and start using NGC for submissions; I already have a nice nucleus of top end NGC slabs with a number being Benchmark coins so it is a fallback if I can't submit to PCGS).
I understand Mike is a busy man so I'll give them a few weeks to respond.

runway · May 18, 2018, 09:58:28 PM

I still don't believe the 2014 Anzac $1 mule PCGS slab is real

drakesterling · May 19, 2018, 03:25:28 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115355' dateline='1526550936'Hi Walter, the random customer service rep was David Talk. Last night I emailed PCGS and headed the email Counterfeit Australian shillings (attention Mike Sargent). So I outlined a number of points and offered a compromise (they remain in their slabs, at a neutral location for a few years and then they come back uncracked with me not posting any images and only showing a select few persons). I did let him know that I'm angry about their retaliation and will post lots of images on lots of forums if they won't budge on a mutual compromise.

PCGS made a mistake putting those coins in holders.
But c'mon Neal. You say you want to reach a compromise, but then you threaten to post embarrassing images on forums. I'm just going to go out and say it: The way you're handling this situation... I don't think you're going to get the result you want.
Eric Eigner

nealeffendi · May 19, 2018, 05:08:10 PM

Hi Eric. Their embarrassment or whatever has made them want those 2 slabs vanish, so......There can be only 2 basic reasons why they cancelled the genuine certs:
-retaliation for me not giving in to their demands for the 2 fakes
OR
-hostage taking to pressure me to hand over the 2 fakes.
So the only thing left for me to do to get them to reconsider their actions is to retaliate in kind. That way they won't get the result they want (the slabs vanishing) but the opposite (those slabs and dozens more put up in neon lights). Is that what they really want?

JeffH · May 19, 2018, 05:53:58 PM

Quoteretaliate in kind

I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.

nealeffendi · May 20, 2018, 12:39:20 AM

Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='115382' dateline='1526718238'
Quoteretaliate in kind
I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.

I'd love that. Only problem is that PCGS has made zero response since they pulled their bully boy stunt 8 days ago and I've offered to find a compromise that both can accept. No response from David Talk, no response from anyone higher up their bureaucracy and no response from Mike Sargent.
So if they think that they can ignore the issue they are in for a horrible time. Do they really want to alienate a client who has a fascination with variety and error coins? (makes me pay attention to spotting coins that are not as the description states and over the years I've purchased many a slabbed coin that is a scarce variety in a standard variety slab, and in the same way have not purchased many a dud slabbed coin. For both though I've added details such as cert# to my notes).

runway · May 20, 2018, 09:37:14 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='115388' dateline='1526742560'
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='115382' dateline='1526718238'
Quoteretaliate in kind
I'm with Eric. Why not consider negotiating in good faith and with an open mind?
I am sure PCGS wants to sort the problem and also does not want to alienate a client.

I'd love that. Only problem is that PCGS has made zero response since they pulled their bully boy stunt 8 days ago and I've offered to find a compromise that both can accept. No response from David Talk, no response from anyone higher up their bureaucracy and no response from Mike Sargent.
So if they think that they can ignore the issue they are in for a horrible time. Do they really want to alienate a client who has a fascination with variety and error coins? (makes me pay attention to spotting coins that are not as the description states and over the years I've purchased many a slabbed coin that is a scarce variety in a standard variety slab, and in the same way have not purchased many a dud slabbed coin. For both though I've added details such as cert# to my notes).

I hear your frustration I hope you can get an outcome