Fake slab on eBay

[runway]

Fake, counterfeit ..  or call it what you want it's still fraud and one would hope any of these listed for sale would be reported ... eBay themselves needs reporting for hosting criminals selling them .... PCGS should be protecting their brand and reputation by following up on any known fakes ... how can we alert them?

[Mister T]

I thought the coin was fake because the reverse details had a slightly fatter and flatter appearance than the real thing. The obverse looked okay to me at a glance.

[Nevol]

For those who would like to be able to determine if a 1934-35 Florin is real or not, have a look at The Australian Coin blog.

https://www.australian-coins.com/blog/2009/11/identifying-a-counterfeit-193435-centenary-florin.html

[drakesterling]

A little vigilance can only work if you know exactly how to spot the fakes and even then there are enough fakes out there of a very high grade that fool the most experienced collectors. To spot some fakes you literally need to know the die markers for every genuine die pair (possible with the 1938 crown and the Centenary, but almost impossible with most coins).
Also a little vigilance only works only works if you have a lot of knowledge about the most minute details of each of the variations in the slabs, how many of us collectors can list the differences in the labels of just the green label PCGS slabs? I can't, heck I couldn't tell you off hand how many types of green labels there are. :scratch_one-s_head: For the fake in the OP I can't say what makes the slab fake (Kudos to Eric that he can) although I can spot the coin itself is fake. 
So where does that leave 90% of collectors who can't spot a fake slab or fake Centenary? And being Christmas how many fakes are being purchased by non collectors as gifts for their hubby, dad, nephew etc and probably don't know the difference between a APCGS, PCCB and a PCGS slab?

You and I have discussed the various die markers that indicate that a coin is fake, and I agree that there are some good quality fakes out there, enough to deceive the experts. However, most of the fakes on flea market sites like EBay are of the lower-quality, crude fakes that would not fool you or me or most collectors, and I think we should give the average collector credit enough to pick these fakes. 

In fact, I see a steady stream of Facebook and forum posts of fakes that were identified by collectors. notcb seemed a little alarmed in his post, and what I want to say is that we don't need to be alarmed at this stage. Fakes have always existed, and the hardest fakes to pick still appear infrequently. And most importantly if you buy from collectors or dealers with good reputations, you'll be ok most of the time. (Yes, I know collectors and auctions who have sold high-quality fakes too, but again, you'd be covered by them if you've fallen victim to their oversight.)

I also looked up the current selection of 1938 crowns on Ebay. Of about 70-odd coins, there were only a few very bad fakes, and most were described as such. I don't think it's fair to cherrypick the five most recent Ebay listings and then point out that only one of them was genuine, even if true. It gives the impression that there are more fakes out there than there actually are.

At the end of the day, we should all be alert to counterfeits, but not alarmed. Stick to the reputable sellers, and if it looks too good to be true, then it's probably a scam.

[nealeffendi]

Just spotted 11 fake 1938 crowns listed on sleezebay. 8 have wording that indicates that they are tokens or fantasy pieces and 3 are being sold as genuine coins. Not one of the 11 have COPY or similar stamped on them.
2 of the 3 being sold as genuine are from local scammers and the third (at 129 pounds) is being sold by a UK dealer with a feedback of over 13700. Even if you can convince that dealer to refund your money you will likely not get a refund of the GST; that fake used a genuine crown to make the die and even has the correct die marker for the reverse die.
Both you, me and a number of posters here can spot the fakes; but once you start talking about the average collector (let alone the new collector or the non collector buying a gift) then I wouldn't give them too much credit to pick the fakes (considering how often I see genuine non shill buyers paying serious money for fakes I know there is more than one born every minute).
In regards to the most recent listings: Of the last 3 fakes to sell (all yesterday) one sold for $103.50 to a bidder with a feedback of 1408, one sold for $148.36 to a bidder with a feedback of 309 (and an underbidder with a feedback of 2675) and another sold for $91 to a bidder with a feedback of 368 (and the underbidder of 1392 feedback). So 5 experienced bidders were fooled to bid on fairly convincing fakes (their marker as fakes is a defect in the crown).
I'm not even sure if buying from reputable dealers is foolproof, if they rely on argumentum ab auctoritate (appeal to authority) then the buyer might be left holding the poop.
Look at how many dealers and collectors rely on the catalogues as infallible or on the description on the holder. Will a buyer of the NGC VF35 or the PCGS VF35 No Dot pennies get a refund from the dealers currently listing on eBay those misdescribed coins? Clearly the dealers involved accepted what PCGS and NGC put on the slabs as fact otherwise they wouldn't have them currently listed. So in a decade or more when people finally realise that there are hundreds of mislabled slabbed pre decimals how will the mess be sorted out? What if the dealer has retired, what if the slab has changed hands multiple times (sold, given as a gift, inherited etc) then who is entitled to the compensation or the ability to claim a refund?

[Goldseeker]

But has anyone advised Ebay that these coins are fakes?

[nealeffendi]

But has anyone advised Ebay that these coins are fakes?

 :taunt: That would be the response, sleezebay knows they have huge numbers of counterfeits listed in hundreds of categories and have done diddly squat about it for years. Bad as it is for centenary florins or '38 crowns just go look for items such as murano glass or calloway golf clubs and sometimes over 90% of listings are fakes (there were law suits from them a few years ago showing such numbers over a length of time, they couldn't get fleabay to voluntarily crack down on the rampant crime so they dueled it out with lawyers).
Since I posted this afternoon another 2 fake '38s from the usual suspects have been listed starting at $85. A nice money earner for stuff purchased for $2 from China.

[notcb]

Good morning,

Some very interesting responses and thanks for the information supplied.

Going back to my original question relating to that particular fake florin, I am still wondering just how the declaration was made that it was a fake (presumably holder and coin) when the information supplied, (registration number and rather poor photo taken at an angle) were the only things available to base the claim on.

I guess what I am asking really, is there an expansive list of pointers to look for with fake holders and fake coins?   Are there available lists of known fake PCGS coins/holders published anywhere?

Some of the suggestions, such as the hooves of the horse into the base line or colours of the text on the holder are not evident with the information supplied in the Ebay listing.

I did think that the hyphen between 34 and 35 was longer than usual, but checking with some other slabs that I have, the hyphen does vary quite often.  Similarly the size of the fonts on the slabs can vary. 

Once again, thanks for those who responded - my confidence in PCGS slabs is still not complete, but certainly better than it was before.

Regards and Happy Christmas

Peter  (notcb)

[nealeffendi]

I've spent many an hour looking for lists of known fakes and found that at best only small lists exist, usually for US or Chinese fakes, and they are often a decade old. For example when I type "PCGS list of fake slabs" the first that comes up is at PCGS and only lists 11 coins (7 Chinese, 3 US and a Mexican) and is dated 27/5/08. Other lists are even shorter.
Perhaps we should start our own list for fake slabs?

[nealeffendi]

If you are after fake Centenary florins then great news! They are on special at Alibaba for US 1.17 (a 35% discount!). But the special ends in 9 days and they only have 994 pieces available. Plus if you spend over $30 you get $3 discount. They also offer buyer protection (in case your coins don't arrive) and you can pay by VISA, Mastercard, Maestro, Western Union etc.
Also PCCB slabs at US 2.99
As for the fake '38 crowns there are at least 4 suppliers with the particular die pair that the shonks in Australia selling for just US1.17. They even have details about their happy clients (including R*** in Australia who purchased 20 pieces on 24 Nov 2018 at 02.36).
With that sort of info why don't the fraud squad put down their donuts and go after the slime in Australia?

[nealeffendi]

An interesting article on a Chinese counterfeiting ring can be found by typing "Inside a Chinese counterfeiting ring" and a site called The Spruce Crafts comes up. Lots of photos showing the minting of thousands of fakes, presses, warehouses, storerooms, retail displays etc all brazenly involving fakes of all kinds (not just coins but banknotes and antiques as well). All done with the Ok of the Chinese government (just another way to rip off long-noses).
You can even buy your own dies to mint your own if you want.