1930 penny london die - die markers

[Goldseeker]

Thanks for your comments.

Between the two coins, the total cost was $40,000.00.

One has been certified by the RAM and the other although checked out by the RAM they wouldn't authenticate in writing due to "public liability".

Both purchased from Belinda Downie over eight years.

[JeffH]

Here is one for sale that has been vetted by Fred.
Australia 1930 Penny Good Fine PCGS VF30

[fred lever]

RAM? Public liability? sounds like the sort of public service/OHS  crap I was served up with the last time
i asked the RAM a technical question about 20 cent pieces.
After the BS reply I received, I never bothered  to contact them again.

I do not see how the current RAM would be in any position to "authenticate" a 1930 penny.
With whom and with what?
Do they actually have any staff with experience with pre-decimal coins and the die types, or the lab equipment and staff to carry out the necessary testing for metal content etc?
I doubt it.

Fred.

[Basil]

Thanks for your comments.

Between the two coins, the total cost was $40,000.00.

One has been certified by the RAM and the other although checked out by the RAM they wouldn't authenticate in writing due to "public liability".

Both purchased from Belinda Downie over eight years.

Yeah,well done Goldie,great Investment.

I still think there are plenty(hundred/hundreds?) out there but you would think they will slowly gravitate to PCGS in the years ahead.

[Goldseeker]

I was the last person, according to the RAM Staff, to ask for a coin(s) to be authenticated.

I had actually deliberately travelled from Melbourne to Canberra at collect my second 1930 Penny that I took up to Canberra several weeks earlier.

In between the intervening years of the first and second coin going to Canberra, the people who authenticated coins had departed the RAM and the new CEO then banned the RAM from certifying coins due to Public Liability possibilities.

The first parcel of coins I got certified were a 1930 Penny, 1921/22 Overdate Threepence and a 1923 Halfpenny, all certified with letters of authenticity.

Several years later, the same thing but the RAM Staff then advised that the CEO would not allow the RAM to certify the coins in letter form but they did advise me that all three coins did meet all the requirements but alas no letter to certify the coins were genuine.

All up, it was an expensive experience and the only way to get coins certified now id to go out into the public arena and get someone who knows what they are doing to get the job done.

[fred lever]

Yeah Goldie, as well as having a grasp of the die variations possible and unique to a particular  type the organisation needs to be familiar and able to verify the metal used. That means a shed full of hi - tech gear.
Also need to be up to date with the latest copy coins from China!
All you can get from a collector like me is an opinion of a self appointed expert!
That you cannot take to the bank!

The Mint gave me the secrecy act and liability song, useless.
On the other hand my last request  to the London Mint was met with a initial response "we will look into it", and then a full reply from an interested staffer with detail, no BS.
They have people that know what they are doing.

Fred.

[JeffH]

PCGS identifies and grades coins, charges for it and, presumably, makes a profit.
Would be a nice little earner for the mint, only need a couple of enthusiasts, and a would be good reputation enhancer.

Almost as good an idea as Donation Dollars. [Sarcasm]

[fred lever]

Talking of rare 1930 pennies check out the rarest one of all on ebay for just $4,500!
It seems the boys at the mint were experimenting with dies back in 1930 or maybe 1950 and either accidently punched a 3 onto a die or maybe was experimenting with the new kangaroo design  in 1930 and minted a few as samples to be handed out to schoolkids at the mint door! Possibly only one ever got out of the mint and so could be the new "Uniquorn" 1930!!!!!!(much sarcasm).
Ok, sorry about that, some nutcase called 44ya-61 has shined up a bunch of copper coins and chiseled up a 1930 for sale.
Dear me, i thought all the dimbulbs had deserted ebay, good to see one back. (more sarcasm)

[fred lever]

44ya-61 is at it again.
On Ebay now has an ENGLISH obverse 1930 on sale for just $6000!
Got to get one of those.
Photos appear to be of two different coins.
Good to see a scammer back in buisness.
Fred.

[Basil]

44ya-61 is at it again.
On Ebay now has an ENGLISH obverse 1930 on sale for just $6000!
Got to get one of those.
Photos appear to be of two different coins.
Good to see a scammer back in business.
Fred.

Extreme buyer beware as all ways with Ebay,still its better now than when it first started in Oz.,back then,1999,it attracted every 2 bit scam artist and conman in Aust. thinking they could 'earn' easy money.
The guy that was selling non-existent laptops back then had something like 60 different ID's and Bank Accts/Licenses.,Police didn't find him,a guy that he ripped off was a IT buff and he tracked him down and gave the Police his name and various addresses.
Also back then,early 2000's,you had to pay for Registered Post,only $2.20,whether you were selling or buying as Coins often did not turn up.

As i said,Ebay is a lot better now you just have to be careful.

[fred lever]

There are two dodgy 1930 coins on offer, that fuzzy one (that looks like a genuine image) and a crap one in a 2 x 2 holder.
I have emailed both sellers and requested they post up better photos so I can see detail.
I wont hold my breath.
Fred.

[JeffH]

If a seller posts an out of focus photo for a supposedly valuable coin that indicates he has something to hide. Or isn't bothered to present it well to get the best, possible price.
Either way bidding on it is a gamble.

[Mister T]

So maybe multiple dies were used to strike the very small number of 1930 London die pennies.

[fred lever]

Hi MrT, one thing to think about is: we do not know how many of a die pair coins were actually struck.
What we know about is how many of a die pair survive.
The fact that only 3 English obverse 1930 coins survived could be because that die pair run was very short.
That could be because of a mechanical failure of a die or a machine.

All of that is guesswork, the only clue we have is the interpretation of the press books by Mullett and his knowledge in talking to the guys in production who were actually there at the time.
Truly all the press room guys were trying to do at the time was:
1/  to make the uncirculated  "samples"  required by the system for each date year to send back to London and for posterity collections
2/ meet the production figures required for the government orders for pennies
3/ try to make dies that would last a decent amount of shifts and then hold that recipe for the future.

They got their ducks in row by 1931 and did not have much trouble after 1932.
When you read and analyse about how many dies  were manufactured but failed during manufacture or on test through 1929/30/31 it is not surprising small numbers of "odd" die pairings survived. At the time know one was concerned what the parentage of a hub or die was, that only came in by collectors after 1960's trying to sort out the story. The press room would only know a die by its derivate hub or tool source name (like from the 1922 london MD tool) and then give that die a serial number like #78 so they could keep a track of how long it lasted so they would then know the recipe
( material and heat treatment ect) was good or bad. They knew nothing about "English" or "Indian" or "Birmingham" or cared a toss for the number of rim beads.
My guess is the 1930 English obverse coins came from one die pair. You would have to line all 3 coins up side by side in the hand and look for any common die marks that may be left. Not going to happen.

Fred.

[Mister T]

From the two images I could find there didn't seem to be any common die markers.