1920 DOBS English OBV Penny

[fred lever]

Basil, thanks for the pix in #15 above.
Nice coin, and tells a story, shows how the press guys were having a problem with the obverse die.
Note the spreading of the rim letters around IND IMP and the incomplete beading.
That die was mushrooming badly on the edges. The surface of the die was hard enough to develop splinters, but the body of the die was too soft and compressing. I have 1920's coins where the mushrooming is so bad the coins show circular waves in the field (10 to 20 thou deviations) or the rims have a myriad of circular cracks and no beads at all. Most collectors would throw such a coin away as useless when in fact there is a volume of evidence relating to the die! Also relates to the fact there are THREE dies in a strike, the top and bottom and the collar! The collar holds all the stuff in!
Anyway, i'm rambling...
The strike is deep, so the pressure looks ok, the die has just lost the beading pattern and could not develop the beads against the pre-rimmed part of the blank.
The splintering on the D was also developing compared to younger examples.
That is a great coin because  it talks to you and tells you what is going on.
I prefer such a coin to some UNC shelf queen.
Fred.

[Basil]

Basil, thanks for the pix in #15 above.

Fred.

No worries,i'm on unlimited Internet at the moment so getting as many Pics on the various Forums(Motor Sport/Stamps etc) i can before i revert back to a Internet plan.
I have an interesting 1920 Coin and will post Pics. this afternoon whilst i have my 1920 Coins out.

Edit...can't find it,when it turns up i will post in a separate Thread,very interesting Coin.

[fred lever]

Continuing with the 1920 dot theme, Les at Top End Coins alerted me to an article on the PCGS web site where a PDF of the Effendi and Lever research material on 1920 pennies is quoted as a source for the PCGS article.
Unfortunately the author did not use our names to reference the source, a matter of accuracy in the least. Thanks to Les for pointing that out.
Worse still The PCGS author headlined his article with an snappy set of words pinched from a chapter in the Effendi/Lever articles!
When I write  articles I am most careful to attribute any quote or idea to the actual source and list these either in the text or in a list at the end of the article.
Some authors are not so careful.
Worse still from my view point, while the article was factual in coin descriptions, the same old fairy stories about the dies used and the "meaning" of the dots is once more in print.
Once in print the fairy stories are then seen as fact. Just like the fairy story about 1930 pennies being handed out at the mint door, if people keep copying and pasting from the same old fairy story they read about a coin , the twaddle goes on and on. If the PCGS author had actually read the Effendi/Lever research (printed as a series in CAB in 2013/2014 and issued as a PDF compilation in 2015) or better still research by experts such as David Briggs in his  "Copper" series, he would realise how speculative some of the statements in the article are.
That is my opinion but I am not interested in arguing with people that do not research topics fully.

If interested, have a read of the PCGS article "The Enigmatic Australian 1919 and 1920 dot penny coins" by Dylan Dominguez, Dec1,2020, and, down load the Effendi/Lever pdf " the 1920 penny" from the "top ends" coin web site or drop me an email. Then compare the two sets of information and see which one has the most twaddle, and look for where Dylan swiped his headline.
Oh I sent an email to PCGS suggesting that the source referencing for "the 1920 penny" have the authors added. About the PCGS article, I am not interested in having any  conversation, each to his own.
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Fred
That PCGS article also turned up on CCF. I burned it there for the trashy cut and paste article it is. What really concerns me is that we are experts in this coin and can see how bad that article is, so now we have to wonder about the quality of all the other PCGS articles for coins we are not experts in. Can we take any PCGS article as factual and scholarly or do we have to wonder how many falsehoods they contain. Does PCGS even fact check the articles that they attach their reputation to?

[fred lever]

Thanks Neal, this would be like me doing a bit of google research on an American coin type and then cut and pasting up an article for CAB.
Readers would be nodding their heads thinking what a wonderful cluey fellow i was about American coins when in reality the article would be utter rubbish.
Authors should only detail write about coins that they have done original research on, with their own coins and pictures.
Knowing what they are talking about would also be handy.
Fred.

[Mister T]

Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.

[Basilstate]

Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.

Yes,they bob up every so often around the $2000 mark so $2750 for a lesser grade is good.I think Neal has a couple.

[serenitystan]

Most auction houses always have a 1930 penny or two for sale, but seldom do you see the 1920 English dot over bottom scroll, yet 30tees go for around 20 grand plus..

[autocoupler]

Yeah, IMHO 30's have had 70 or 80 years of media and industry hype which has kept interest and values perking along, and I imagine vested interests within the coin industry are doing all they can to see things stay that way. 

Maybe when collectors start to think it's more important to have the full set, is when we'll see values for the 1920 English dot above start to increase. 

That day may not be far away, I remember recently seeing a similar coin rarity, the 1931 dropped 1 Indian graded aVF/VF, gFine IMHO, sell at auction for around $6,700 including commission.

[nealeffendi]

Sterling and Currency had a 1920 dot over bottom scroll English obverse the other week - looks like it sold now.
It was gFine and $2,750 I think.

Yes,they bob up every so often around the $2000 mark so $2750 for a lesser grade is good.I think Neal has a couple.

Cheapest (and nastiest) example I've seen was $1495 (IIRC) some years back sold by Stuart Andersons. $2750 for gFine is reasonable. The prices for both the 1920 Dot Above English and the 1931 Dropped 1 Indian have not moved up much in the past decade. Yes, I have a couple (and then some).

[serenitystan]

Noble auctions last sold a 1920 DOBS London PCGS vf 35 back in 2016 for $3200.00 plus commission. Interesting to see how much it sells for next time around...

[Mister T]

No, prices haven't moved a whole lot, but $6,700 for dropped 1 Indian - the seller must have been happy with that.

[autocoupler]

I see M R Roberts has a warped dropped 1 Indian with rim damage advertised for $2,500.

[Basilstate]

For anyone interested there is a 1920 Dot over Lower Scroll English Obverse for sale on IAG Auctions this week.
Looks like it will go for over A$3000 which is reasonable seeing only 20 or so have been ID.

https://www.iagauctions.com/auction/index.php?fcategory=21&fgrade=all&festimate=all&submit=%C2%A0Search%C2%A0

[serenitystan]

You would think there'd be half a dozen bidders fighting for it by now. Yet no bidders so far. Most commonwealth varieties collectors are now in old people homes. New collector's are just interested in coloured 2 dollar coins...lol..